Pro-Ams and comped entries

[2ndsuks]

Does anyone know if the money from comped entries in Pro-Am tournaments like Won Bass, Anglers Choice and West Coast Bass are actually paid into the prize money pool by the organization or is it just deducted from the total pay back ?

I know how it works in some of the team tournaments when the AOY get their entries comped but what about the Pro-Ams.

[Bill Cook]

At the AC Pro-Ams, any comped entry is paid by AC.

Bill Cook

[TAP25]

The only way I see to know is to look at the tourney Orgs books, if they allow it. I know AC has a open book policy! It is a shame to think that you are fishing for less money then advertised!

Tony Peterson

[Bill Hutcheson]

Having worked with two of the main players in the West, I can only say that U.S. Anglers Choice does not deduct the amount of any comped entry from the payback. We have an open book policy where we post our payback on Friday evening of the tournament not only at the partner pairings, but on the web as well for all to see.

I am happy to explain how the payback works at the event and show the books to any angler that should have a question. This is perhaps why the AC all-cash paybacks are proudly posted immediately before and after the events and not hidden from the angling public.

Ask yourself - why does the organization you fish not do the same thing? They all have to cut the checks on Sunday afternoon, so they know exactly what they are paying out. Why hide this?

[2ndsuks]

Having worked with two of the main players in the West, I can only say that U.S. Anglers Choice does not deduct the amount of any comped entry from the payback.

I'm not trying to put you in the hot seat Hutch but are you saying that WON Bass does?
If you do not want to answer this , I understand.

[captjohn]

All tournaments should be open book. Every team event included. There is so much miss informantion out there about what actually goes to the fisherman or the organization. If evey organzition had a open book then fisherman could choose for them selves what was best.

We should support organizations that do.

[Bill Hutcheson]

I no longer work for WON BASS so I have no idea what the current policies are.

[bryanmc]

Having worked with two of the main players in the West, I can only say that U.S. Anglers Choice does not deduct the amount of any comped entry from the payback.

Is that another way of saying AC PAYS the entry fees for comped entries into the prize pool? I'm only asking because, to me, your answer is sort of ambiguous.

[captjohn]

I fished a TOC at Clear Lake a few years ago in November and our checks for the options were dated Sept 1. I have not fished but one of this circiuts tournaments since.

[Bill Cook]

We do. For 92 entries at Oroville, every entry was paid for in the pay out and hold over money. Period. Even Mark pays for his entry.

Bill

[bryanmc]

Thanks for the straight answer Bill. That's the way it should be, for Pro-Ams and team tournaments as well.

[Kevin Evans - Kap]

AC rocks I tell ya...

Kap

[2ndsuks]

Thank you Bill Hutcheson and Bill Cook for clarity in regards to Angler Choice and comped entries.

It would be nice to hear from Harvey and Larry as to where Won and West Coast Bass stands on this issue.

[bigbass111]

Well, just from an outside standpoint looking in. The WON Havasu Pro-Am drew 99 boats and paid 20. Dont they pay 1 in 5???? If thats so then it looks like they paid right.....Right???

Why stir the pot guys, WON is just trying to survive like anyone else..And I think they've done great so far..

[kopper_bass]

bigbass,
not trying to take sides or fuel the argument, just pointing out your mis-understanding of the root of the question.

paying out 20 spots on 99 boats doesnt mean anything. what you want to know is if all 99 entries paid into the prize money?

You can have 99 boats, have 3 comps with no money in, and still pay out 20 spots to the winners. it just means you paid out less than expected money if all 99 entries were paid in.

hope that makes sense.

Kopper

[bigbass111]

Well im sure if you wanted to know that bad you could do the math.....Right.

Another thing...

Why do we (west coasters) bitch and complain so much about tournament org's?

No wonder BASS left us and so many orgs are falling apart..

Back east people are so happy to have this stuff available in the first place. I never heard the drama out there from anyone in 5yrs. And guess what, they fill events in minutes...period

For some reason we like to bitch and ruin tournament trails if we dont like them. Out east if you don't like something you just don't do it. And you sure don't go online and try to stir the pot..


Just shut up and fish, or don't...

sorry just my .02

[hippie]

Ill answer that for you mr. big bass with hidden name. people come on here to get the straight scoop. Before you buy a tv, car , computer, stereo. do you do research on it? Well i do I go on forums and see what people don't like and like about a product to find out the pros and cons. then i go and check out the item myself. I love hearing the truth about orgs. and product. Why not tell everyone what you like and don't like. Sometimes if the org is not hard headed they will fix what alot of people don't like. You people think its trying to bary a org but its trying to help people decide. what would you rather do go fish a org that draws. 50 boats vs. 100 boats and pays out 1and 5 or 1and4 . what about percentage of entry 80% instead 90%. Do you like wasting money trying something that sucks. I don't. If an org cant step up to the plate and compete and make people happy then drowned. No matter what history an org has. everyone retires and dies so if an org dies off. let it go. let people rant and rave about it. Sounds like you like the east better so go back there. opinions are a great thing and very interesting on how people percieve things.

[bigbass111]

LOL....

Alot of people aren't picking due to payout issue's. There are guys on here that work for other org's and they push rotten stuff to promote themselves. I'm glad your a smart shopper Hippie and if thats YOUR input so be it.

There's always more to the story..

Justin

P.S. Who are you? Just hippie?

[bryanmc]

Justin...
Here's the point as I see it. I'll use round numbers just to keep it easy. If an org has 100 boats fishing but 50 of them were comped, (and the entry fee for the "comped" entries wasn't paid into the prize pool by the org) the payout would suffer.

WON could have had 100 boats if they had given away 55 entries, but the payout would suffer and you would see a lot of problems when people who fished for free won the money of those who had to pay. But it would have been a 100 boat tournament! As it was, WON allowed ANY pro to sign up at the draw for $200, which is a slap in the face to those that paid full price. Want to bet whether WON paid the other $150 into the pool for those guys? How about the free pro-am entries that were given away at the team tournaments? Want to guess if they put the money in for those?

From what Bill and Bill said, AC does it the right way, if they give an entry away they pay the entry, not just a freebie.

I have no allegiance to any tournament org, but, would you rather fish against 35 guys who paid the same as you, or 50 guys when only 35 of them paid what you did?

[bigbass111]

Did YOU fish any of the WON Pro-AMs this year?

Have you called WON and asked these questions?

Or are you guys just ranting on what ifs?

If I had these same worries I would ask the horse not the jackass.

Justin

[bryanmc]

Did YOU fish any of the WON Pro-AMs this year?

Nope

Have you called WON and asked these questions?

No, I asked their folks face to face

Or are you guys just ranting on what ifs?

Nobody is ranting. We're discussing ways to inflate the field that don't work, and ways to inflate the field that are better.

[bigbass111]

what did they say when you asked them face to face?


I guess I'm just differant. I plan on fishing any southern pro-am available this year. If AC or another org comes down and puts on an event I'm in, period. I myself am not going to pull out a calculator and see if its going to be worth it. Or how many comps, etc etc. If my check is 40, 50, 60, or a 100 short becasue of comps Ohh Well.

I won't touch FLW with a ten foot pole due to some of its problems that are much, much bigger than comp differances. But that is me and my choice. And if you like cool aid then more power to you and them. I'm not going to tell you otherwise, its your money and decision.

And what you think is a better field is your opinion not others, so inflate it without trying to deflate others.

[Ricky-S]

Big Bass have you ever fished a FLW event? If not, looks like you are doing the same exact thing that you stated....

"For some reason we like to bitch and ruin tournament trails if we dont like them. Out east if you don't like something you just don't do it. And you sure don't go online and try to stir the pot..

Just shut up and fish, or don't..."

Sound like you need to take your own advise

Someone that would take a 1/5 pay back where the last check doesn't make money and comp entries take away from the payback over 1/3 payback where the last check earns you double your entry is very questionable. I don't care who is running the derbie....

[bigbass111]

Ricky, I was waiting for you....

I have never said dont do, nor have I went off of hear say.

In the past my issue's with FLW had nothing to do with payouts or telling people not to fish. I have only brought up issue's that are being seen now even more with Anglers getting the short end of the stick with exposure. But the numbers that FLW is seeing nation wide and the loss of top anglers doing Opens only proved my point.

Heck, you guys are bitching over comps. With FLW you need to spend 50k on a new boat JUST TO WIN A FULL PURSE...

What about the guys with non FLW compliant sponsors that need to feed the family...Is it fair that the advertised purse doesn't count for him unless he conforms to spending thousands for PROFITS that went to pockets, and not to the hundreds that lost jobs in the GENMAR BK...

But I've been over it.....

[Ricky-S]

You still didn't answer the question....Have you....

I have fished EVERY org that puts on derbies in the West. There is no question that some are better than others.

At the end of the day I just want to be able to fish a professional tournament and have FUN. I could care less WHO runs the event.

I just love fishing.....

[bigbass111]

Yes, I fished 2 BFL's back east...

And guess what...They were comped, my best freind out there was the assist Tournament director for the Strens and 4 BFL divisions.

They called me the night before to get me to come out so a co-angler had a ride. One event I did not even fish, I basically took the co-angler where he wanted to go. I didn't even have gear.

Did they cover my comp's, who knows.....

When I moved from here to Florida the everstarts were just getting here. Once I got out to Florida, I quickly found out from several people that had been doing FLW for some time to go the BASS route if I wanted to be able to make a real living. Having ONE guy control basically all of your sponsors isn't the best thing. You should be able to talk to your own sponsors and have true control of whats being said.

From there it was a broken record with everyone out east. Maybe thats why the Opens are so big out there.

But like I said, I am really over it now..I could care less about what FLW does.

[bryanmc]

Justin, I have an idea...
Lets fish a tournament, just you and me. You put in $500 and I'll be comped in. If you win, you get your money, if I win, I get your money. Seems fair, doesn't it?

[bigbass111]

Being that I would with zero effort, YES....j/k
What did they tell you Face to Face, I'm curious??

[bryanmc]

That the money for comps and reduced entries is not put in by the organization. They just fish for free.

[bigbass111]

My source stated the discounted entries are covered but wasn't sure about the comps. But to me that washes out, I really dont care. Looks like one of our peeps is wrong...

[bryanmc]

It should be easy to tell. When WON posts the complete breakdown (don't hold your breath), the total pro entries should total $15,750

[bigbass111]

huuh, they posted the payout on the website awhile ago...


Havasu, they paid out around 35k..a little over 41k was put in (including extra options)but they keep a percentage for the classic.

ohh you mean Shasta...

[Rick G]

For what its worth, the comped entrys and Staff team deal is way out of control IMHO. On the pro side, the org should pay in the money. On the team side there should be a new team that is picked in the morning of the event that has to "volenteer" to be the assisting team for that day for the TD and you can only get picked once a season. That means check in, weigh in, cooking burgers, everything. Maybe a extra cash bonus for the volenteers if they win. Other than that let the TD's bring some relatives to help, but every team pays no matter what. Between AOY teams and staff teams they can take a grand out of any event. Rick G.

[hippie]

Justin who? everyone knows who Hippie is its no secret. hippie AKA jason chang with short homo hair now. So do you fish the pro ams for WON as a pro or a AAA its irrelevant but just a question. If you fished these pro ams years ago you would understand why people cry now. because of the economy the lucrative winnings are gone and its hard to look at what you win today vs what you won yesterday. So people want the biggest bang for the buck.

[bigbass111]

You don't know who I am....Everyone knows me, I'm Justin. Didn't you know. I'm just a nobody with a straigh man's haircut...

Yes and Yes...I do fish the Pro/Am's currently and did years ago(boater). Yes, I do see the differance but I also see smaller fields with less sponsors.

And its not just out west, its all over. But I can't and won't just support one because of a little better payout. Not to mention competition needs to exist with everything or you will always get the muddy end of the stick.

Justin Hanold

[FWebb]

Big Bass have you ever fished a FLW event? If not, looks like you are doing the same exact thing that you stated....

"For some reason we like to bitch and ruin tournament trails if we dont like them. Out east if you don't like something you just don't do it. And you sure don't go online and try to stir the pot..

Just shut up and fish, or don't..."

Someone that would take a 1/5 pay back where the last check doesn't make money and comp entries take away from the payback over 1/3 payback where the last check earns you double your entry is very questionable. I don't care who is running the derbie....

Exactly what I was thinking...

[bryanmc]

huuh, they posted the payout on the website awhile ago...

I didn't say "payout" I said breakdown... You know, dollar amounts of total pro entries received, total am entries received, total received in each option, amounts paid to what place or person for each.

[Andrew Jackson]

Rick, your kidding right in regard to the team tournies? What is the big deal if a working team or two gets comp'ed as long as the paying anglers can see the results of it. It's has been 20+ years for me now of team fishing and I don't think it has ever been an issue. Like I stated the paying anglers have to reap the benefits.

[Brian Linehan]

The staff teams aren't a big deal Rick. One AOY and two staff teams are what I averaged all year. When you are averging over 30 boats per tournament, you need two staf teams. One person has to needle fish, one person has to pass bags and do a lot of misc work, one to weigh fish, and my last person usually records the weights on the slips. If you run too lean of a staff, the weigh in is super slow and the end result is the tournament director catching flack because the tournament doesn't run smooth.

Even with 3 comped teams, as long as they enter all of the options which they always do, the payback isn't affected as much as you are suggesting.

For example, at a 30 boat field, the difference between comping 3 teams basic entries and not comping any teams would result in only $25 to each team in the money!!! $25 Rick! Is that even worth talking about? lol

The money is in the options, not in the entry. If you want higher paybacks, more people need to enter the options.

[Rick G]

Nope, Andrew not really kidding at all. Maybe if every team that wants to fish an exclusive circuit knew what it takes to run an event they would respect the org's and the TD's better. Some of these regions have 2-4 staff teams on top of the AOY teams. Why not have a draw at each meeting in the morning to see who the staff team that day is? And dont tell me that it takes that much training to hand out bags or weigh fish or flip a hotdog. Give the days staff team a bonus if they do well. Everyone should pay IMHO except the AOY team as they have earned it. Rick G.

[Brian Linehan]

The staff teams earn it too Rick. They are doing work that the rest of the participants aren't. Read my post above.

For WON BASS, comping 3 teams on a 30 boat field results in $25 less paid back to the people in the money. $25!!!

It's not an issue on the team level as far as I'm concerned.

[2ndsuks]

Rick,

If you ate my BBQ it would be the last tournament you fished while I cooked.


On a serious note, I feel AOY getting free entries for the following year is no problem, team or Pro-Am, everyone has a chance to get that title and the perks that go with it.
But Organizations comping their buddies or comping hand picked anglers to improve their draws is flat out wrong, unless they pay the money into the payout pool.
Personally, I believe organizations should do away with options and have an all inclusive entry fee, FLW (until this year) and BASS got it right.
If tournament org A pays back 75% and org B pays 90% then there you have it, be upfront and let the anglers decide but it's the smoke and mirrors and the perception of dishonesty that leaves a bad taste in our mouths.

Not posting the pay-outs so people can do the math only adds to the suspicion in my opinion but each organization has the right to do business the way they see fit.

The public fishing forums are a double edge sword, if an organization utilizes them to promote their tournaments then they should also be willing to address legitimate questions on the same boards.

My 02

[bigbass111]

I am with Brian on this. I am there to have fun and try to be competetive. I can also tell you the $20-30 differance will in no way hinder my decision.
That amount of money to me is a wash on a well run tournament. Not to mention if $25 is going to stop you from fishing an event you shouldn't be fishing.

[sTony]

The public fishing forums are a double edge sword, if an organization utilizes them to promote their tournaments then they should also be willing to address legitimate questions on the same boards.

My 02

Just my opinion, but I think it's okay for Orgs to use forums as promotional vehicles without strings attached. There's no expectation on our part that they respond to each and every question here. Some will and some surely won't, and that's not incriminating on their part. More being cautious and for some it's now there policy not to respond to such posts publicly. All the more reason to approach them off-forum first.

sTony

[Robert F]

Rick,

If you ate my BBQ it would be the last tournament you fished while I cooked.


On a serious note, I feel AOY getting free entries for the following year is no problem, team or Pro-Am, everyone has a chance to get that title and the perks that go with it.
But Organizations comping their buddies or comping hand picked anglers to improve their draws is flat out wrong, unless they pay the money into the payout pool.
Personally, I believe organizations should do away with options and have an all inclusive entry fee, FLW (until this year) and BASS got it right.
If tournament org A pays back 75% and org B pays 90% then there you have it, be upfront and let the anglers decide but it's the smoke and mirrors and the perception of dishonesty that leaves a bad taste in our mouths.

Not posting the pay-outs so people can do the math only adds to the suspicion in my opinion but each organization has the right to do business the way they see fit.

The public fishing forums are a double edge sword, if an organization utilizes them to promote their tournaments then they should also be willing to address legitimate questions on the same boards.

My 02

Mike hits it right there.
Hiding behind option payouts has been the norm but doesn't make it the right way. CBC has a good easy formula to see where the money goes. Same with FLW. Options just cloud the payback of the entry money.

Nothing personal Brian but "just 25 dollars"? If it is only "25 dollars" then why don't those comped people just pay 25 dollars? Or the Org kick down the 25 dollars? It's "only" 25 dollars when it is coming out of somebody elses pocket. Right? Maybe allow EVERYBODY in the field to sign up for the staff deal and rotate through all the teams interested in the comped entry? When you see the entry fee payback stripped of the options 25 bucks is a lot.

[bigbass111]

You guys are too much........

Why can't staff members get comp'd entries???

No offense to some of you guys, but some guys are just dumb arse's!!!! If they were drew to do something that required MATH or Scales it may take them forever and Directors will get slammed....

$25 is cheap..... And I would PAY that to have a well ran tournament at my leisure....

I guess I'm bad with money..

[Rick G]

Well lets look at it from the Org's eyes. I have 3 staff teams not paying a basic entry and I get at least $45.00 x 3=$135.00

Now $135.00 x 7 events a region= $945.00 a tournament year
How many Team regions do most Org's have? 6-10? Seems like it adds up to me. Wouldn't you like to see that money at the TOC? That could possably be an extra 10K in cash for the TOC champ?
Maybe I want to just pocket that money and go on vacation? Hawaii with the Linehans sounds like fun to me. lol Dont take this too serious folks, just bored on a rainy Monday. Rick G.

[2ndsuks]

It's not an issue on the team level as far as I'm concerned.

I agree!

It's the Pro-Ams I am asking about.

There's no expectation on our part that they respond to each and every question here.
sTony

“each and every questionâ€

[Brian Linehan]

I guess another way to look at it is that this is a business we're running, not a bass club. I know those lines get blurred every now and then.

Being that this is a business, I need to have people I can count on to run the smoothest event possible. In addition, if I have to train new teams every month, that would be a nightmare.

Look at it this way, would any of you business owners tell your clients that they need to volunteer their time and work for your company for the day? No, you wouldn't!

Always up for Hawaii though Rick! You know that! lol

[bigbass111]

Rick,

Look at it like a Doc fee.....LOL

Everyone is usually ok with it, but some just don't want to pay it...

And I'm sure you know what I mean..

It's no big deal