Of Obama/Biden And the Shooting Sports

hrvestuff · Post by **hrvestuff** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:49 pm

Anyone who enjoys the shooting sports of this country and would like gun ownership rights by the private citizen better think long and hard about Barack Hussein Obama's voting record and stated positions regarding such sports. While Sen. McCain's record is less than perfect regarding gun ownership, he has steadfastly voted for gun rights most of the time. Conversely, Obama has always been on the side of the anti-shooting sports lobby. During his first run for the Illinois Senate in l996, he supported legislation to "ban, manufacture and possession of handguns". In 2003 he voted to limit handgun purchases to one per month. This year more than 300 members of Congress signed a brief urging the Supreme Court to declare the Second Amendment protects an individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms and to over-turn D.C.'s handgun ban. Obama and Joe Bidden refused to sign the brief.
Both in committee and on the floor of the Illinois Senate, Obama was given the opportunity to stand up for a crime victim and for the right to self-defense, or to stand for local gun bans. He chose the latter and voted four times against the rights of the crime victim.
In l999, Obama proposed increasing taxes on guns and ammunition by 500%. At present a rifle that sells for $500 probably carries a tax of somewhere between $50 and $60. Under Obama's tax proposals the tax on the same gun would be around $330.
Obama also supports Sen. Kennedy's bill to ban the manufacture of all currently existing semi-automatic handguns on the grounds that they don't have firing pins and breech faces that imprint the microscopic serialized characters on fired cartridge cases.
During his first year as a U.S. Senator (2005) Obama voted for a ban on center-fire ammunition used for hunting. Such ban proposed by Senator Kennedy, which should surprise no one.
Barack Obama was a board member of the Joyce Foundation, which was the largest source of funding for the radical anti-gun and anti-hunting groups around the country. To put it simply, the Joyce Foundation is THE anti-gun movement in this country, and Barack Hussein Obama has long been one of its leaders.
Obama's running mate, Joe Biden is an equal threat to the outdoor sports and gun ownership. He has NEVER found an anti-gun ownership, anti-hunting proposal that he didn't support. Another reason that he was selected as Obama's running mate.

But then, do we really need hunting and shooting sports, or to have possession of a gun of anykind ? ? ? If you think not - then vote for Barack Hussein Obama....he will make you happy......(along with the criminal element that carries guns, and of course PETA and the Sierra Club).

-hrvestuff

Fishin' Dave · Post by **Fishin' Dave** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:02 pm

Anybody who wants to come take my guns better come fully loaded. As a lifetimg NRA member, I don't fear Obama. It's just like I told my leftie friends with Bush'd spying; I got nothing to hide.

I will not be scared by guns and god

I will not be scared by the "lesser of two evils" argument.

I am still not voting for either of these two.

Good luck with your gun collection.

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:52 am

Dave, Thank you. for not voting.
If a man feels that way I think he should have the right to not vote.
Good for you.

The People · Post by **The People** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:47 pm

So, we are now officially marginalized to fringe issues. That speaks volumes about where this presidential campaign currently sits. The right wants to keep going back to taxes, god, guns, and gays... issues that ignite a certain portion of the electorate's emotions but never go anywhere and will never go anywhere. Why? Because they are losing big time on the issues that actually matter and can be affected by the next president. The economy. Foriegn relations. War policy. Energy.
Talking about shooting sports being banned is about like talking about womens' right to vote being banned. It's nonsense, and is only employed to create fear and distrust. It's a political tactic. Nobody is going to take away 2nd amendment rights. Ever. Even if they wanted to, they couldn't without a super-majority of Congress.

Ringer · Post by **Ringer** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:47 am

I seem to remember that Ray Nagin sent the storm troopers into NO door to door to confiscate all firearms. It was challenged and found to be illegal and unconstitutional yet it was done by a gun grabbing democrat. Think about that mess and you tell me as a gun owner that you would want your weapons stolen right in the middle of the most dangerous period of anarchy in your lifetime. It is a major issue.

Andy Lippert · Post by **Andy Lippert** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:38 am

"It's a political tactic. Nobody is going to take away 2nd amendment rights. Ever. Even if they wanted to, they couldn't without a super-majority of Congress."

Once again....the people....Go talk to the citizens and previous hand-gun owners in the "great" city of San Francisco. You're WRONG....again. I figured that, given how liberal you are, you'd be up to speed with the San Francisco political scene. Silly me. And silly you for thinking that "they" can't take our guns.

Andy Lippert

Rough Thumb · Post by **Rough Thumb** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:44 am

My constitutional rights are not a fringe issue.

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:51 am

Last time the Dems played with gun control. They had their heads handed to them on a platter.
This time even the hardcore are claiming they were at their fathers side hunting as a child. Everybody love our gun rights this year

First 2 things that are taken away, Guns & freedom of speech.
Right now the Dems are working on both.

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:13 am

how so Rod. In what way are Democrats working to impede our 1st and 2nd Amendments?

We have lost more freedoms under Bush than any modern day administration. We have people who have been placed unjustly on the "no fly" list, their freedom of travel has been severly hampered. We have a government who has repeatedly abused our personal rights to privacy through listening to phone calls and reading emails without warrants or even probable cause. We have seen torture and holding of people for years without any charges or due process. This is just a small sampling, there is much more happening in banking and other areas concerning privacy of individuals.

Republicans and The Bush Administration made all of this happen. What Republicans stood up for our rights when all of this was happening?

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:13 am

I must have read Obamas & Bidens life stories wrong.
Dan you are right Obama & Biden are the strongest supporters of our 2nd Amendment rights, If it had not been for them D.C. would still have the most opressive gun laws in the nation.

Please forgive me

Now how does your post have anything to do with the 1st & 2nd amendments.

Dont they pretain to freedom of the press & right to bear arms.

Bush has done a lot but I think you were thinking of someone else.

[We have lost more freedoms under Bush than any modern day administration. We have people who have been placed unjustly on the "no fly" list, their freedom of travel has been severly hampered. We have a government who has repeatedly abused our personal rights to privacy through listening to phone calls and reading emails without warrants or even probable cause. We have seen torture and holding of people for years without any charges or due process. This is just a small sampling, there is much more happening in banking and other areas concerning privacy of individuals. ]

None of this has to do with the 1st. or 2nd.

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:28 am

Last time the Dems played with gun control. They had their heads handed to them on a platter.
This time even the hardcore are claiming they were at their fathers side hunting as a child. Everybody love our gun rights this year
First 2 things that are taken away, Guns & freedom of speech.
Right now the Dems are working on both.

I was refering to your post, basically saying the democrats are working on taking away our 1st and 2nd Amendment rights, my question was "In what way?" or did I mis-read what you were saying?

The rest of what I am saying is this, it doesn't seem to bother most republican/conservative types that more of our liberties have been stripped away during the past 8 years of the Bush administration than ever before in modern history, so why is a big deal now?

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:05 am

and I'm saying you gotta be kidding Obama and Biden are or were very open about their views on gun control, Before starting their run for Pres.& V.P. [ you're not willing to admit that?]

The rest has nothing to do with what I wrote. Differnt subject, brought up to divert atten. away from my post.

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:39 am

Robert D. Novak - Obama's Second-Amendment Dance - washingto...
Obama, disagreeing with the D.C. government and gun control advocates, declares that the Second Amendment's "right of the people to keep and bear arms" ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 08/04/06/A...

Barack Obama on Gun Control

Obama sought moderate gun control measures, such as a 2000 bill he cosponsored ... OBAMA: Let's be honest. Mr. Keyes does not believe in common gun control ...

www.ontheissues.org/domestic/Barack_Obama_Gun_Co...

Barack Obama on Gun Control

Obama sought moderate gun control measures, such as a 2000 bill he cosponsored ... OBAMA: Let's be honest. Mr. Keyes does not believe in common gun control ...

www.ontheissues.org/domestic/Barack_Obama_Gun_Co... - 25k - Similar pages

Obama linked to gun control efforts - Yahoo! News

Barack Obamaâ€™s presidential campaign has worked to assure uneasy gun owners that he believes the Constitution protects their rights and that he doesnâ€™t want ...

news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080419/pl_politico/9...

Gun Ban Barack Obama

Barack Obama would be the most anti-gun president in American history. ... most zealous gun control supporters in Congress to refute facts compiled by NRA's ...

www.gunbanobama.com/ - 45k - Similar pages

Obama's gun-control history in the Illinois Senate | Spero N...
Oct 14, 2008 ... While a board member of the leftist Joyce Foundation, Barack Obama wrote checks for tens of millions of dollars to extremist gun control ...

www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=16427 - 53k - Similar pages Sportsmen for Obama? - Home

Reporting Barack Obama's stand on gun control. ... Despite his words, Obama will support all the gun control he feels he can get passed. ...

www.sportsmenforobama.org/ - 34k - Similar pages

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:26 pm

As for gun control, yes I am absolutely willing to admit that Obama has a history of being for certain types of gun control, and frankly to some extent I am bothered by that a little. He has no record of ever being for an outright ban on all guns that I am aware of.
I would not accept a complete ban on gun ownership, I feel it would lead to massive civil unrest, and I don't believe any sane person wants to see that. Do we all see 2nd Amendment rights the same way? I doubt it.

My view is that I have the right to keep and bear arms, however I accept some limitations as to what type of arms we're talking about, I personally don't feel anyone has the need for machine guns, not even so called collectors. I think it is reasonable to limit capacities of clips, and certain kinds of ammo, having said this I am for "some" limitations on 2nd Amendment rights. The purists believe that any limitation is a violation to their rights, that means any limitation on purchases, waiting periods, ammo, capacity and types of weapons. These same people probably also believe that we're still capitolists.

But as I have said before, gun control like abortion is one single issue, it isn't the only issue and for me not even a defining issue. Maybe because I feel it won't ever happen, at least not by a President.

I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that McCain favors some limitations on 2nd Amendment rights. Like all Amendments to the Constitution, they can be repealed through the States, of course I don't see that ever happening like it did during Prohibition and the repeal of that Amendment in 1933. But peoples moods change, kind of like they are now, tired of what we have seen, and the furthering of the same policies with very few exceptions by McCain.

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:41 pm

Again you gotta be kidding. Before he started running for Pres. He voted for every gun control bill he could.
He was for the D.C. Gun ban untill it lost.
you say it will never happen, Canada, United kingdom, Australia. might say differnt.

One thing is for sure if a total ban happens, any other freedom you think you have now[no matter how badly bent by the Reps.] Wont be far behind.

Rough Thumb · Post by **Rough Thumb** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:48 pm

I personally don't feel anyone has the need for machine guns, not even so called collectors. I think it is reasonable to limit capacities of clips, and certain kinds of ammo, having said this I am for "some" limitations on 2nd Amendment rights.

So this logic means that something is gained by restricting these things....

How many people are killed by "machine guns", special kinds of ammo or killed directly tied to large capacity clips vs. low capacity clips?

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:50 pm

Thats OK, once something is gone it doesnt come back. I think at my age and the way I have set up my life, what happens to the the country should not hurt me [too much]. I should be able to live out my days ok, although I dont want to I guess I'll leave ti for the rest to fix, I think its beyond , my ability to change it.

Ringer · Post by **Ringer** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:54 pm

Why would anyone want to ban 30 round clips and assault rifles? Those guns are exactly what the second amendment was designed to protect. They are there to defend your family and to overthrow a corrupt government. They are for killing people and no one needs to apologize for owning them. They are exactly like a musket was when the Bill of Rights was signed. Same firepower the military had with the exception of cannons.

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:42 pm

Where have you been the past 8 years while freedoms and the constitution were getting trampled on?

As far as I know I'm not an Australian, a Canadian, or a Brit. I wouldn't compare an American to any of them.

So what, I believe in some gun control, you believe in restricting a persons "right" to abortion. Clearly you can see the parallel.

Ringer · Post by **Ringer** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:48 pm

I don't believe in stopping all abortion. Matter of fact I can think of a number of people who should have been aborted.

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:53 pm

If using "your" logic you are correct.

I understand the reasoning and the incidents behind wanting to restrict clip capacity in California. As far as I am aware no person has ever needed 30 rounds to fend of an intruder in their home. If you feel you need a 30 round magazine for protection, then its quite possible your involved with something that you need to think twice about.

I don't know anyone who chooses an SKS or AK or similar assualt rifle for home defense, I think in close quarters a good semi-auto handgun, revolver or perhaps a 7 round short barreled shotgun is better suited than a cartrigde that is likely to go through several walls and possibly kill an innocent neighbor as an assualt rifle would do.

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:56 pm

Yes, I believe you do.

That is something I don't get, on one hand you are against government intervention into our personal lives, on another you want government intervention to stop someone from doing something which was a personal choice. It just doesn't make sense.

Ringer · Post by **Ringer** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:07 pm

You don't get it. I have a CHP 18 inch barrell 12 gage with 00 buck in my home. I keep several AR-15 rifles and thousands of rounds of ammo cryovaced and hidden far away from my home for future use should Ray Nagin decide to take over the country. I would never fire a rifle in my home and would be careful of my target location on a pistol. I will give you an example where you might want and need to have an assault rifle. James Carville said on CNN that if Obama was ahead in the polls by 5% and lost there would be hell to pay on the streets of America. A possibility with the race factor. Sounds like a good reason to keep and bear arms to me. JMO.

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:59 pm

cryovaced and hidden ammo, really? and what in the heck has the mayor of N.O have to do with anything?

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:04 pm

Dan Ringer got in the middle.
I'm not against abortion, but again we were talking about gun control, and if[ and thats a big if we could come to an agreement on gun control] I would be willing to consent to some.
Problem once you give ground, and the likberals come back for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th , 5th round of talks. They dont give back they just want more.
So its hard to give ground knowing that their plan is to come back for more as soon as they get any.
And you and everybody in the world knows it or should. They have certianly said it enough

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:02 pm

I agree with your position, its hard to hold the door closed once they have a foot in. I'm coming from the side of reason, believing that consenting to "some" limits of certain types of firearms and ammo can be controlled, but I forget about groups whose beliefs have no middle ground and believe its all or nothing.

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:35 pm

My fishing partner was just over. He said I had to go easy on you . You were really a nice guy even if you had gone over to the dark side

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:00 pm

How big are his feet now? I'm guessing sz 14 or 15, maybe 16? I'm not as far to the dark side as you may think

Ben is a good kid, and he's got a good Dad and friends who've got him pointed in the right direction. There is a lot to be learned from hanging around craggy ol republicans

I hope you two go put a hurtin on them, I sure haven't my last few trips, I've squeaked out limits but nothing to brag about.

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:25 pm

We're hitting Camache, this weekend, maybe we'll do some good

Rough Thumb · Post by **Rough Thumb** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:56 pm

I don't remember the part of the 2nd amendment that says it was about home defense.... And which one of the constitutional amendments is the abortion one again? Apples and oranges.

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:40 pm

Amendment 9 - Construction of Constitution. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:49 pm

The reason the US Constitution is one of the greatest documents ever written is not just what is in it, but what they left out of it as well. So as not to convey our only rights were those that existed in the Constitution.

your right apples and oranges.

The People · Post by **The People** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:53 pm

Bottom line is, there has never been a federal gun ban bill introduced by anyone that would take away your weapons held for sport or personal defense. Nor will there ever be, no matter who is president.
This IS a fringe issue invented by the right to control your vote. If you honestly believe otherwise, you have been effectively brainwashed.
If you own a gun, ask yourself: Is it a non-assult type weapon? Is it registered? If you answered yes, then your "rights" have never been infringed on by the federal government. Nor will they ever be.

For a comparison, ask yourself if the car you drive is registered in the state you live, and if it is street legal. Same deal.

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:13 am

The person said there has never been a federal gun ban bill introduced by anyone that would take away your weapons held for sport or personal defense. Nor will there ever be, no matter who is president.
This IS a fringe issue invented by the right to control your vote. If you honestly believe otherwise, you have been effectively brainwashed.
If you own a gun, ask yourself: Is it a non-assult type weapon? Is it registered? If you answered yes, then your "rights" have never been infringed on by the federal government. Nor will they ever be.

What year was it that they baned the BAR & thompson submachine gun. 19? something, now every gun is call an asault rifle., or a sniper rifle, and they're trying to ban them .
What about the clinton ban on mags and certian guns.

It is and has been for a long time the intent of some people [Obama is one] to slowly reduce gun rights [ban something here, tax something there] until there are no guns left [ in the hands of honest americans]

Now that is being done by people outside of America. Trying to have our RIGHTS become second to world [rights]

In no country has a ban worked, every country that bans guns still has crime and it is increaseing.

In our own country each state that has adopted right to carry laws, has seen crime go down.

the person, I think you may be mistaken in your assumion

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:16 am

AND just so you will know

Driving a Car is not a RIGHT

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:35 am

Your right Dan it left out a lot of things

Those things were left to the States to deal with. After all it is the United States of America

That is the big deal with abortion. It should be left to the states to deal with. There are some that want to ban it [just like there are those that want to ban guns] the differnce is guns are covered by the 2nd.

There are alot of things such as abortion that are now covered by the fed. gov. that should be at the state level.

If we took everything that is not covered in the constution and gave it back to the states just think of the money saved, the layers of gov. that would be gotten rid of. and the persons responible for laws would be that much closer to the people they affect.

our forefathers wanted a small fed. gov. not this monster that has grown too big to handle.

Fishin' Dave · Post by **Fishin' Dave** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:37 am

Abortions and guns huh?

You guys fool around with these issues while everything else goes to crap.

As we speak, illegal alieans are bankrupting and closing hospitals and schools. Next time you shoot yourself in the foot your local hospital may be closed.

Did you know polio, hepititus, and tuberculosis is making an amazing come back?? Can't protect yourself from these with a gun.

How about the last time you drove to the gun range? (last weekend for me

) Notice the roads stink?? Maybe we should fix them before bridges fall in Minnesots (oops already happened.) Rod, you are a professional truck driver so you should be an expert on the poor quality of our roads.

Speaking of you Rod, as a professional truck driver what do you think about your "hero" (you said this earlier) George Bush allowing trucks from Mexico to come take your job with unsafe rigs and you know they don't pay the insurance rates you do.....

Anybody want to talk about the big waste of resources for the other war? The war on drugs?? How much money is spent each year patroling, investigating, arresting, and incracerating people for weed? I have never smoked it, ever so don't label me like that. I am speaking from a governmane shold butt out of your life and individual right point of view; I'm more right wing then you silly republicans on this!! Think of all the criminal networks out there that would no longer have a reason to opperate it you could get a joint like you get a cigerette. Now, you wanna be a truck driver like Rod, or opperate machernery then you need to test clean for sure!!

How about energy?? Remember that issue? We need to deal with energy. How about a massive solar farm in Nevada? How about a nuke plant out in bfe new mexico? Lots of great ideas in this area. Important issue.

Nobody talks about Bush's 3 meetings with the president of Mexico and the PM of Canada about creating a "north american" currency much like the Euro. My consertive himself George Bush has been discussing forming a north american union to compete with the EU financially and for one universal border on the continent. OH BOY!

There are like umteen other issues going on out there and why do we always come down to this?? Abortion and guns. You know where I stand on these issues; life time NRA mamber and a gun safe the size of your refridgerator. I have two boys and I could hear their heartbeats at 3 weeks old!! Lets not get stuck on these two issues but discuss all of them as a whole.

I am Dave, a proud registered independant since 2004 and I aprove this message.

Ringer · Post by **Ringer** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:07 am

OK, we agree on just about all of that. Any country that prevents utilization of it's oil resource in order to help world carbon pollution when all of it's enemies are drilling right up to said country's shores and polluting like hell is destined to fail. We are a high minded bunch and Obama and Pelosi will not allow one drill in new ground or one new nuclear plant. I don't worry much about confiscation of my guns since they are 90% unregistered and untraceable and in my state I have the right to carry concealed as well as open so who is going to make the first move? Best part of it all is that I think Obama will win and have a supermajority in Congress so we will know within two years if the democrats are good or bad for us and then change we can believe in will happen in Congress. That is the beauty of our system.

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:11 am

I wont get stuck on just two issuses

so lets get to yours Your words

You guys fool around with these issues while everything else goes to crap.

As we speak, illegal alieans are bankrupting and closing hospitals and schools. Next time you shoot yourself in the foot your local hospital may be closed.

Did you know polio, hepititus, and tuberculosis is making an amazing come back?? Can't protect yourself from these with a gun.

How about the last time you drove to the gun range? (last weekend for me ) Notice the roads stink?? Maybe we should fix them before bridges fall in Minnesots (oops already happened.) Rod, you are a professional truck driver so you should be an expert on the poor quality of our roads.

Speaking of you Rod, as a professional truck driver what do you think about your "hero" (you said this earlier) George Bush allowing trucks from Mexico to come take your job with unsafe rigs and you know they don't pay the insurance rates you do.....

Anybody want to talk about the big waste of resources for the other war? The war on drugs?? How much money is spent each year patroling, investigating, arresting, and incracerating people for weed? I have never smoked it, ever so don't label me like that. I am speaking from a governmane shold butt out of your life and individual right point of view; I'm more right wing then you silly republicans on this!! Think of all the criminal networks out there that would no longer have a reason to opperate it you could get a joint like you get a cigerette. Now, you wanna be a truck driver like Rod, or opperate machernery then you need to test clean for sure!!

How about energy?? Remember that issue? We need to deal with energy. How about a massive solar farm in Nevada? How about a nuke plant out in bfe new mexico? Lots of great ideas in this area. Important issue.

Nobody talks about Bush's 3 meetings with the president of Mexico and the PM of Canada about creating a "north american" currency much like the Euro. My consertive himself George Bush has been discussing forming a north american union to compete with the EU financially and for one universal border on the continent. OH BOY!

There are like umteen other issues going on out there and why do we always come down to this?? Abortion and guns. You know where I stand on these issues; life time NRA mamber and a gun safe the size of your refridgerator. I have two boys and I could hear their heartbeats at 3 weeks old!! Lets not get stuck on these two issues but discuss all of them as a whole.

Close the borders, Make a child born here citizen of mothers country.

Trucks are trucks, inspect them and require same rules for all. Although they have not hurt my busness

A common currency is coming , maybe we slow it down, Obama will bring it faster

Drill, Drill, Drill, Yes move to any other energy that can be devloped, But in the mean time Drill[ but oh just not in my back yard]

Drill any where theres oil.

The economy, How about the fed. and state gov.s quite spending.

NO MORE PORK, NO MORE BAILOUTS, NO MORE SUBSIDYS, NO MORE PROGRAMS THAT THE MONEY KEEPS GOING OUT LONG AFTER THE NEED ENDS.

Lets accept that we cannot fix the world with money, quit spending.

Wars, There will always be wars[ doesnt matter if we like it or not] There will always be a bully on the school ground that needs to be taken care of. Plan for it , save money for it , accept it.

If we get the money in order, everything else will take care of itself.

Abortion is their issuse, I dont care that much one way or the other, just move it back to the states to take care of.

Guns and freedom of the press[ even when I dont like what they say] are the 2 most important issuses.

If you dont stay on top of them , you wont have to worry about the others

When did nafta start? Just wondering.

Tobe · Post by **Tobe** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:13 am

The People wrote:Bottom line is, there has never been a federal gun ban bill introduced by anyone that would take away your weapons held for sport or personal defense. This IS a fringe issue invented by the right to control your vote.

There has also never been a risk of a President Obama, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reed government establishment. When you have the possibility for three of most far left liberal politicians in America running the country, it is not a matter of if our right to bear arms is taken away, itâ€™s a matter of when.

So our Bill of Rights is a "fringe issue". Maybe to thepeople that live in your neighborhood but certainly not in mine.

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:16 am

you said I don't worry much about confiscation of my guns since they are 90% unregistered and untraceable and in my state I have the right to carry concealed as well as open so who is going to make the first move?

Everybody talks big & bad, till they come to get them.
Same way it has been thur all of history

Whats that saying

Something about history and learning from it

Ringer · Post by **Ringer** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:36 am

I am 100% focused on the second and my point was that in AZ we have many gun rights Californians can barely remember thus the reality of confiscation is a concern. I don't worry only because there are so many redneck gun toters here that this will be the last place some government team will focus on. IMO some people should have been killed in New Orleans during the gun grab.

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:06 am

Dave,
I don't think we're stuck here, but the original post was about gun ownership and rights, leave it to me to drag the "A" issue into it.
All the things you speak about are big concerns for most and we have drug them all through the dirt a time or two, with a couple of exceptions.

My feelings on guns and right to bear arms is simple, a President, Congress cannot take these rights away from us, it would take an Amendment and that would take 2/3 rds of our States to pass, so it really isn't an issue for me that Obama believes in some form of gun control, as President he is powerless to one; make laws, two; to go against the Constitution. Having a recent SC ruling that reaffirmed 2nd Amendment rights makes it that much more difficult.
And I agree with Rod, there are what 100-200 million or more guns in the hands of law abiding citizens, who are the people that are gonna come and take them?

Drilling for oil, as much as I wish we had the ability to, we don't. Where are all the rigs, pipeline and infratstructure? Who is going to pay for it? Certainly not the oil companies, for what to go after less than 5% of the worlds reserves? It won't happen because it has too little value. If it were of value there is no doubt they would have gone after it with gusto by now. Furthermore oil is sold on the world market, you really don't know who's oil by way of gasoline went in your tank last week, and because of OPEC who adjusts its output to keep ALL the pumped oil in the world at a specific level, forget about any savings, remember its a commodity. This drill baby scheme smells like Karl Rove, and plenty of you have bought into it, that is for sure.
Nuclear-lets get started.
Solar-what are we waiting for.
Natural gas-we have plenty.
Wind-lots of it.
We have some of the smartest scientists on the planet, unleash them on some of these problems and you would see tenfold increases in technology over twenty years. Give them incentive based guaranteed grants-people respond to money.

It's too late to be protectionists in a global economy, those days are well past us now, what we need is exports, things like solar, wind, new energies and technologies, not to shrink away from the challenge but to stand up to it.

Illegal aliens, a worker program. We need the low cost labor, that is a fact of life, has been for more than a 100 years. Document them, force those that employ them to provide health insurance, make them pay taxes and legalize them( not citizenship) but into the system, drivers licenses, DMV fees, car insurance. We have to have them, we should make them welcome and collect all the fees and taxes we possibly can, after their 5 years they can reapply or go home.

Fishin' Dave · Post by **Fishin' Dave** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:07 am

NAFTA =1994

Rod, I find it funny we agree on many issues except for the fact George Bush stands for none of them execpt at election time.

BTW Rod, using the "quote" feature will make it a lot eaiser to read your posts. You can quote the whole story by clicking the "quote" button in the upper right or quote bits like this

I'm quoting myself

By clicking the button at the top. Keep up the posting bud. The more people talk the more chance we have to change things.

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:17 am

just wish was as smart as you when it comes to computers

On Oil, Having worked in the oil fields, and owned an oilfield company. And having just gotten back from a drive across the U.S.

The oil fields are booming. Wells that have not been in use in years are being put back into production. wells that have ben flowing are being worked on to increase production

The thought that some people feel what little oil we have is not worth the effort is not true.

Each oil field, even each oil well is differnt, each has a cost to produce. At $10 a barrel some wells are shut in as it costs more to get the oil than it sells for.

Drilling rigs are big massive things that are built during boom times and sit in a yard during hard times, so there should be a few sitting around.

Most places the infarstructre is already in place. As in off shore in Calif. just because there has been no drilling , Oil has been pumping from the existing platforms that were there before Calif. stoped drilling

So we might as well drill, even if some people think its not worth it. Lets let the mean old Oil companys decide if its worth it at todays prices.

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:19 am

if my post come out funny its your fault till I learn how to use that button now

Fishin' Dave · Post by **Fishin' Dave** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:47 pm

Rod Martin wrote:if my post come out funny its your fault till I learn how to use that button now

Just like that my friend

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:58 am

I listened to a show a while back they had the CEO's of 4 of the largest oil companies in a round table, all 4 concured that it wasn't cost feasible to try and extract oil from many of the so called reserves, the number one reason was the lack of infrastructure and the cost of start up, when more lucrative places around the world exist and assets are already in place there. I have seen many of those oil fields, Kansas, OK, Texas, LA, yes those old deckers can sit for decades until the price of oil is right and then be turned back on, there is a good reason many of them sit, low production numbers and the cost of bringing the oil out of the ground. The average US oil well is 1/10th as productive as one you would find in Saudi Arabia. But drilling platforms and pipelines in areas they want to drill in now don't currently exist, couple that with the deplorable condition of the Alaska pipeline, who is going to pay for it? When do you reach the conclusion that your pouring good money after bad, and the ROI isn't there. I'm no expert, but I can see many more jobs, perhaps a 100-1 can be created by investing in new energies, that do have a decent ROI, and will raise US exports, oil doesn't do that, it may lower imports by 2-6% maybe not even that much.

Rod Martin · Post by **Rod Martin** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:17 am

Dan I'm not saying not to invest in new ways, But also open up areas where there is oil. If oil companies do the numbers and dont drill we havent lost a thing. If they think oil can be had at a reasonable cost, let them drill, it only cost the oil compines money, not the Gov. or us

If you had a big slice of cake left over from yesterday, would you eat it or leave it setting on the table and wait for your wife to make another cake in a couple of weeks?

Buddy I'd be eating that cake.

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:57 am

if you saw me, then you'd know the answer "eat the cake now!"

I see your point, just took me a little while and for you to put in terms I can relate to

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