MUSSEL INFESTATION*NM*

[Phil]

Which lakes are infested with the mussel so far ??

[Bill K]

Jigs. With out any proof, I would bet that most all the lakes that birds fly into will eventually have them. In time they will probably it is not boats or cars that spread them as much. It could be like MTBE showing up in landfills, inland wells and water supplys, it came from exhaust of vehilces traveling and not boaters. But you know the kneejerk attitude of our government officials. I know I am sarcastic, but that is my feelings. Bill K

[ash]

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/invasives/quaggamussel/

Under FAQ it has a list of currently documented lakes.

[Jeff C.]

Bill, where are you getting your information that the mussel is more likely spread by birds than boats? Are you an aquatic biologist? According to the DFG site the principle source of spreading them is through human activities.

[ash]

So far the most proliferate Human Activity has been the California Aqueduct. Most infestations can be traced directly back from there, but hey that would lead to accountability on Metro Water, other water agencies and the state.......so it must be the bass fisher mans fault

[Barry Watson]

I have been suffering from a mussel infestation.

[Greg_Cornish]

The mussel hysteria is building. Clear Lake folks are calling on Arnie to issue a state of emergency WETF that means. One of the county supervisors counted 40 boats on the lake without inspection stickers last weekend.

[Bill K]

Bill, where are you getting your information that the mussel is more likely spread by birds than boats? Are you an aquatic biologist? According to the DFG site the principle source of spreading them is through human activities.

Can not recall where I have read it, but it has been in more than one magazine, mostly related to fishing. I know what F&G puts out, but that will always favor their point of view or agenda. I believe that those small devils can be carried by birds, i.e feathers, body waste(as other parasites can) deposited in other waters and start spreading. Everyone to their on opinion or conclusion. Bill K

[Greg_Cornish]

I have seen no data or science that shows mussel infestations have cost anyone a penny yet and I have been asking to see it. I have only heard rumors and hearsay from official sources that it's costing communities "Billions" to fight them.

i have seen a beach in Lake Erie covered with shells but the fishery is in excellent shape as is the water quality. My brother in Minnesota is a State Representative and no-one in the Land of 10,000 Lakes is expressing much concern or restricting boating.

I have seen a biologist holding a pipe covered by mussels "on the outside" of the pipe. I have done repeated searches on google on Mussel Damages, Mussel Infestations, and can find no images of damage, but just links to a lot of hysteria in California.

I would sure like to see this information being spread backed up by good documentation.

[Tin Can]

Greg, it's costing somebody money that is for sure. It's going to be costing me 7 extra dollars to launch at Anderson.

Really though, you can't dispute that the mussels will attach themselves to water pumps and pipes in drinking water reservoirs. Somebody will have to get paid to remove them. It isn't going to happen for free. I know you get a lot of your info from the great lakes area since they have had these critters for a while now. Are those lakes used for drinking water?

[Greg_Cornish]

I should clarify:

I'm not saying in fact the hysteria isn't justified. I'm saying that I'd like to see better supporting data than what I've seen.

[Greg_Cornish]

Are those lakes used for drinking water?

Yes, by cities based all around the lakes and by Nuclear Power Plants and industry.

[Tin Can]

I should clarify:

I'm not saying in fact the hysteria isn't justified. I'm saying that I'd like to see better supporting data than what I've seen.

Definitely agree with you there. Some proof of the damage caused by these things would make me feel better about what is happening.

[Jay Rowan]

some links to damage estimates...

http://seagrant.gso.uri.edu/factsheets/ ... ussel.html

http://www.dgif.state.va.us/wildlife/zebramussels.asp

http://nationalatlas.gov/articles/biology/a_zm.html

Sift through for the estimate numbers and great pictures.

Just Google zebra or Quagga and damage and you will have hours of reading material.

It's already costing you money Greg. Where do you think the $ for those 4 decon. stations and all those stickers came from? Lake Co. footed the bill, which means that every person that pays taxes in Lake Co. footed the bill.

Minnesota has a very, very aggressive public outreach campaign that is being looked at by most of the western states as the model to follow. To date only 4 of their 10,000+ lakes have been infested. Some of that is due to biological limitations, but a lot has to do with knowledgeable boaters doing what they are supposed to be doing.

I recently watched a show put out by the Pacific Marine Fisheries Council, you can get it for free off their web site or you can get one from the R-2 DFG office when we get them in. Really good video. Anyways, on the video one of the guys from MWD estimated that it was going to cost them several million per year for the next 10 years to put in the infrastructure to deal with these guys. That has caused them to raise their rates approx. 15%. If your in So. Cal your water bill just went up.

Bill, birds are a very low threat of spread compared to boats, water transport and bait. There is no evidence showing that any lake has been infested by waterfowl, but there is plenty showing that boats will move these things.

As far as the fishery in the Great Lakes, the white fish population, which is an important commercial fishery has all but collapsed, and native birds are dying by the thousands. See the link below.

http://www.noaa.gov/features/earthobs_0508/zebra.html

http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/

The hysteria is there because the problem is real...

[Greg_Cornish]

I was referred to this man who works for the state of Minnesota. This is his reply

I've provided some information on the questions below. If you would like more information or have more questions on zebra mussel biology, ecology or where and what they might be doing in Minnesota lakes, please contact me. If you would like more in-depth discussion on invasive species policy and directions that the Invasive Species Program is heading, please contact Luke Skinner (copied on this email) who is the supervisor for the invasives program.



are they taking the nutrients out of the water?

Zebra mussels filter small particles from the water to feed. In any lake infested with zebra mussels, they are taking some of the microscopic food and nutrients that this food represents from the water and using it as food. However, we have not yet seen serious impacts in our inland lakes from this feeding. Some researchers have suggested that if you have huge numbers of zebra mussels filtering food, they may steal enough food from the lake to impact other aquatic life (such as larval fish). We have not seen this in our inland lakes.

Are they ruining the docks?

We have not seen any reports of dock or boat lift damage in our inland lakes that have zebra mussels. In our state, we benefit from pulling docks and boat lifts from the water every fall. During the winter, the zebra mussels die and can easily be knocked or scraped off before putting the dock back into the water the next season. Some lakes have reported lots of mussels on dock structures, such as axles and other metal parts, but no one has reported any damage. We do benefit from the fact that the build-up of mussels on docks, boat lifts and other recreational gear only occurs over a few months during the summer season. Each spring we really have clean equipment that goes back into the lakes.

Are you anticipating limiting boats on lakes to keep them from spreading to your other lakes?

The DNR has not pursued the policy of restricting boats from public waters. The Invasive Species Program has focused on education, awareness, boat inspections through the Watercraft Inspection Program, enforcement of existing laws (such as requirements to remove aquatic vegetation from boats and trailers before leaving the access and to drain water after exiting zebra-mussel infested waters) and cooperative efforts with local groups such as lake associations to raise awareness.



Gary Montz

Research Scientist II

Aquatic Invertebrate Biologist

[Greg_Cornish]

You can find this on google too. But a real life biologist in Mankato will tell you its not true.

I haven't heard of the commercial whitefishing being annihilated ot native birds dying by the thousands, but I'll be there from June 17th through June 27th. I have a few connections back there. I'll be sure to ask about it. My brother is the former 4 term president of the Minnesota Game Wardens and is now a State Rep. He can open some doors for me.

Like I said, I'm not saying its not true.

[Greg_Cornish]

As far as the fishery in the Great Lakes, the white fish population, which is an important commercial fishery has all but collapsed, and native birds are dying by the thousands. See the link below.

I wrote to:

In reference to the commercial white fishing industry collapsing.

Ronald E. Kinnunen
Michigan Sea Grant Extension
Michigan State University
710 Chippewa Square-Ste 202
Marquette, MI 49855

Greg,
I have been involved with a study on Lake Michigan whitefish which has focused on their condition. The lake whitefish in the Great Lakes has not collapsed. It still remains our main commercial fishery. Check out our web site: Great Lakes White Fish
In some areas of Lakes Michigan and Huron the major food source for lake whitefish has collapsed--diaporia which is like a small shrimp that lives on the bottom of the lakes. Some feel the disappearance of diaporia may be related to the invasion of zebra and quagga mussels. Since diaporia have disappeared the lake whitefish has turned to other food sources such as small zebra and quagga mussels which is not the best diet. This has resulted in changes to the lake whitefish fatty acid composition. The desirable omega-3 fatty acids have dropped in lake whitefish from these areas. The growth and condition of lake whitefish has dropped off but the population has not collaped and there still is a viable commercial fishery.
We have well over 100 inland lakes infested with zebra mussels in the state of Michigan. This has not been due to lack of public outreach of which I am a part of. With our 3200 miles of Great Lakes shoreline in Michigan it is not hard to imagine the movement of boats and fish gear from the Great Lakes to inland lakes. To compare this to Minnesota where the only Great Lake they have is Lake Superior. And zebra and quagga mussels do not do well in this lake because of the lack of substantial phytoplankton for food and also the low calcium levels needed to build their shells. So I don't think that Minnesota can claim that they have a better outreach program than we do in Michigan. Look at a map and you can see the difference between these two Great Lakes states. Most of our zebra mussels are in Lakes Erie, Huron, and Michigan. So our chances of an inland lake invasion are much greater than Minnesota can even realize.
The bird die offs have been related to botulism poisoning. Probably a link to dead zebra mussels and round gobies that eat zebra mussels and become contaminated with botulism, and the birds eating the gobies.

Now, about the bird die-off, this guy says, "Probably a link to dead zebra mussels and round gobies that eat zebra mussels and become contaminated with botulism, and the birds eating the gobies."

In recent years we have had large bird die-offs in Clear Lake because of avian botulism. This has never been fully explained either. Think of all the water in Michigan. If birds are dying by the "hundreds" here, it doesn't surprise me that they are dying by the "thousands" across the state of Michigan. They are probably dying by the thousands in the state of California too.

He says "probably", I like that. He's saying, "our best guess is." When official tell us things like the White Fishing industry has "all but collapsed," and "Minnesota has a viable outreach program."...Then I find that these facts are over stated and just plain untrue it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

No-one in Minnesota knows they have a great awareness program. They don't need one yet - The zebra don't survive in lake Superior. Did you get your states confused? It seems Michigan has a viable outreach program. Its not helping though - over 100 lakes infected.

You said once that Michigan spends over $43 billion in zebra mussel cleanup etc. I found they entire Michigan State budget was $45 billion. When I pointed that out you said that was because most of the money was spent by local governments.. I haven't had a chance to check that out yet, but I will. I really doubt the poor state of Michigan spends that much on zebra mussel clean-up. Perhaps you could save me that research time and just tell me where you got your facts and figures.

[N.A.R]

Jeff C.
Just to let you know, we have a few lake down here in So Cal that have documented mussels and they have NEVER allowed boat. For example Big Bass Lake, Lake Dixon has mussels.

With those facts, I agree with Bill K. That any lake that birds fly into will eventually have the mussel.

Tony

[Greg_Cornish]

With those facts, I agree with Bill K. That any lake that birds fly into will eventually have the mussel.

Tony

I'm on board with this. In my readings it says that these microscopic organisms cannot be screened out of water intakes. In another post someone stated that the velligers are not good candidates for transportation by birds because birds don't usually stay in one spot very long. You ever see an egret or a heron fish? They stand in one spot for a half hour or more. They have wonderful feathers for carrying and transporting.

On the net I found that while zebra mussels attach to hard surfaces, they found quagga attached to softer surfaces like mattress and old car seats too (they too like harder surfaces). This makes feathers a candidate. Plus the hard scaly surfaces of their legs seem good transportation candidates. Birds are notorious for transporting different kinds of life from one area to another.

I'm not saying that wake boats and other vessels aren't good candidates too. I'm for good accurate science and I think there should be research done by an independent source and fast. I think that we should stop comparing midwest lakes infested with zebra mussels to the quagga threat. We need apples to apples comparisons. I'd love to see the biological history of the regions these little buggers originated from.

[Greg_Cornish]

Here's an interesting site showing the spread of Zebra Mussels since they were discovered. Move your cursor of the tabs on the top of the page.

http://nationalatlas.gov/dynamic/an_zm.html

[Jeff C.]

Just to let you know, we have a few lake down here in So Cal that have documented mussels and they have NEVER allowed boat. For example Big Bass Lake, Lake Dixon has mussels.

Agreed, that's pretty conclusive evidence that they can be spread through means other than boats.

Do these lakes get fed by runoff or streams that are also infested?

[Jay Rowan]

The southern CA lakes were infested through water transport from the Colorado River. As far as I've heard San Justo is still a bit of a mystery, but I'd put my money on live bait.
The reason that birds are not a likely vector (not impossible, but unlikley) is that their feathers are hydrophobic, they don't absorb or hold water. While a veliger could and probably do settle on bird feathers, feet etc. it's not likely to live because in that life stage they don't survive out of water for very long. Once that bird takes flight it tends to dry out pretty quick. Adults can survive out of the water longer, but they are even less likely to wind up on a bird because they aren't very mobile once they find a spot to grow. As for going in one end and out the other, I don't have an answer for that. Probably a good question for an avian or mussel expert. I'll ask around, but as far as I know no lakes have been infested by birds.
Boats on the other hand have infested lakes and that is fact.

I rechecked my notes from 3 different meetings (The first of which was in Lake Co. and brought up by a Lake Co. resident) and it is indeed Minnesota "Land of 10,000 lakes" that is being held up as the model for education and outreach. The person from SeaGrant might not agree, but that is what is being said at the meetings I've been to.
http://66.35.240.8/cgi-bin/article.cgi? ... MVTE6S.DTL
See the 4th and 5th paragraphs under Rec. boating.

Here's a good link on the whitefish decline (sorry, collapse was a poor choice of words. Perhaps impending collapse? Or maybe the collapse of it's primary food source would be a little more palatable?)
http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/brochure ... -fish.html

The reason he said "probably" is because cause and effect can be very difficult to prove. (And he's a researcher. They're a squirmy bunch to nail down.) Your talking about the "best guess" of people that have devoted their lives to studying these lakes. We also call that "BPJ" or "Best professional judgment" and it is more often than not correct.
The Clear Lake die bird die off's, at least last year, were related to Avian Cholera. It is a fairly common occurrence, but is not type E botulism that they are seeing in the Great Lakes.
These mussels are very good at storing PCB's and other toxins, and also appear to selectively feed allowing higher levels of cyanobacteria/blue green algae. http://newsroom.msu.edu/site/indexer/1911/content.htm

Here is another story that shows a pretty clear link between the mussels, gobys and birds. The people doing the research seem pretty convinced at least.
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=203769

The bottom line is that there has been huge changes in the ecosystems in many lakes that can be directly linked to, or have"suspected" links to one or the other mussel or both. If all the data and thousands of web pages out there about what these critters can do and have done doesn't convince you that these guys are a threat, I'm probably not going to either. We went this route a few months ago. Maybe you'll believe the mid west guys that have them in their lakes. Ask them these two questions. Do you think the Zebra/Quagga's have been good or bad for the health of lakes they are now in? Would you want them to be introduced into a lake in your area that does not have them?

I personally don't want to find out what will happen if they get in to the best bass lake in the country. I'm pretty confident saying it won't be good. I'll just go ahead and take the extra 30 seconds at the end of the day to dry out my live wells and pull the plug. If I have to wait an extra 10 min to fish for an inspection so be it.

I'll leave you with a few images. Just keep in mind what the dominant forage for LMB is when looking at this first one. The last two are more for your bank account than fishing related. "Food grows where water flows" That's what the signs say right?

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/caer/ce/ ... ussel2.jpg

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... 4%26sa%3DG

http://www.marlerblog.com/spray%20irrigation4(3).jpg

[mac (Doyle McEwen)]

Jay, I don't really believe many or any of us doubt the possible outcomes..I think most people are concerned by what appears in some cases to be knee jerk reactions..Truthfully a lot of it seems to be closing the barn door after the horse got out..The clean and dry campaign makes a whole lot of sense, just like wearing PFD's when running the big motor..I think a lot of the current negativity stems from the appearamce fishermen are the primary targets..It isn't that this is true, but it does seem that way at times..I agree with what you say about the birds being a poor transporter..It could happen, but it is unlikely..At the same time a tournament bassboat is not as likely a transport mode as a houseboat or any other boat that stays in the water for longer periods of time..The primary danger from tournament bassboats is probably the livewells and possibly the bilges if in rough water where there is already an infestation..

mac

[Greg_Cornish]

The reason that birds are not a likely vector (not impossible, but unlikley) is that their feathers are hydrophobic, they don't absorb or hold water. While a veliger could and probably do settle on bird feathers, feet etc. it's not likely to live because in that life stage they don't survive out of water for very long. Once that bird takes flight it tends to dry out pretty quick. Adults can survive out of the water longer, but they are even less likely to wind up on a bird because they aren't very mobile once they find a spot to grow. As for going in one end and out the other, I don't have an answer for that.

The above is all true. However in a PDF file in the other thread I started, it did say Mallard ducks did (in a contro study) transport veligers overland. VERY VERY FEW compared to man but they did transport them. I don't know how many it takes. Many it the best (oe worst) vehicle. It also states that zero mussels or veligers survive going through the digestive system. That's good news.

Boats on the other hand have infested lakes and that is fact.

Unarguable

I rechecked my notes from 3 different meetings (The first of which was in Lake Co. and brought up by a Lake Co. resident) and it is indeed Minnesota "Land of 10,000 lakes" that is being held up as the model for education and outreach. The person from SeaGrant might not agree, but that is what is being said at the meetings I've been to.
http://66.35.240.8/cgi-bin/article.cgi? ... MVTE6S.DTL
See the 4th and 5th paragraphs under Rec. boating.

I'm wondering how much of that is coincidental. According to this map Lake michigan is the most infected lake, outside of Lake Erie - Lake Superior the least infected. The states on both sides of Lake Michigan seem to be equally infected. One thing I'm certain of - if its true and the transportation of veligers is lessened by educating Minnesotans, we can certainly do a better job here. There is so much more lake hopping going on there than here its unreal. Can you imagine driving twenty miles there and going by 10 to 15 different lakes, all with good fisheries? Thats what its like. There are lots of numbskulls back there that pay no attention to guidelines.

Here's a good link on the whitefish decline (sorry, collapse was a poor choice of words. Perhaps impending collapse? Or maybe the collapse of it's primary food source would be a little more palatable?)
http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/brochure ... -fish.html

The Clear Lake die bird die off's, at least last year, were related to Avian Cholera. It is a fairly common occurrence, but is not type E botulism that they are seeing in the Great Lakes.
These mussels are very good at storing PCB's and other toxins, and also appear to selectively feed allowing higher levels of cyanobacteria/blue green algae. http://newsroom.msu.edu/site/indexer/1911/content.htm

Thanks for that correction, that's true.

If all the data and thousands of web pages out there about what these critters can do and have done doesn't convince you that these guys are a threat, I'm probably not going to either.

I'll never move my boat off Clear lake without a 4-5 day dry-out and clean-up. The aquatic vegetation alone will keep me from doing that. It's unreal what I pull out of that lake every time I trailer and un-trailer. I swear I haul out 50 lbs of vegetation.

I personally don't want to find out what will happen if they get in to the best bass lake in the country. I'm pretty confident saying it won't be good. I'll just go ahead and take the extra 30 seconds at the end of the day to dry out my live wells and pull the plug. If I have to wait an extra 10 min to fish for an inspection so be it.

Me either, just trying to base my knowledge on more than one source and talk to as many people who have been there as I can.