Second amendment.

[Ringer]

Very intersting that the Supreme Court is going to finally decide the meaning of the "right to keep and bear arms". It is for Washington, DC but you know that if they rule for individual rights it will turn California and New York upside down. Supposed to have a ruling by next june. Can't wait to hear the squealing coming out of the Bay area if the court defines for the individual vs a state militia. Good luck to those who feel it is their right to keep and carry.

[Brian]

Link

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/20/washi ... cotus.html

[Guy Kelley]

*NM*

[Jim Conlow Sr.]

The proveable truth is that the areas of the United States that have the least amount of gun control also have the lowest amount of crime.

Semi automatic means that you have to pull the trigger each time you want to fire a single round.

Many sporting arms are semi automatic.

Full automatic weapons are illegal and have been since I believe 1928

Areas of the United States where the requirements for getting a concealed weapons permit have been relaxed, have seen very dramatic decreases in crime.

[Pearl Swimbaits]

It is still the same amount of crime.... just half go unreported and
that same half turn into missing persons

[Brian]

The proveable truth is that the areas of the United States that have the least amount of gun control also have the lowest amount of crime.

Semi automatic means that you have to pull the trigger each time you want to fire a single round.

Many sporting arms are semi automatic.

Full automatic weapons are illegal and have been since I believe 1928

Areas of the United States where the requirements for getting a concealed weapons permit have been relaxed, have seen very dramatic decreases in crime.

Now that I agree with. 100%

[Guy Kelley]

[Ken C.]

"Gun-Control" laws will never, ever take guns away from the bad guys. And the police - as good as they are - will never be able to get to your home in time to save you in a crisis situation.

It's the old proverb, "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns".

If that happens we're all in trouble...

[Brian]

Whats sporting about High Speed, High Impact, Fast As You Can Pull The Trigger, Large Capacity Clip, Military Style Assault Sporting Rifles.

And PLEASE don't tell me ya need em to hunt ground hog's or squirrels.

I see nothing wrong with owning present day sport type of rifles or hand guns. say 44 .cal or even a 50.cal for that matter if you are a true sports men.

But its the copies of military style that I have a problem with. You know what I mean ? True a 45 is a knock off of the army's in WW 2 but we are not talking about those anyway.

And what do ya mean were they have relaxed the gun control laws
I thought they were all the same in the states anyways. Except maybe for individual city ordinance?

You know Guy, You sound just like Jim Zumbo did, And do you know what happend to him????? If not google it.



And no the laws are not the same, they are controlled by the state all the way down to city and county. See Arizona and Texas.

[Andy Giannini]

The 2nd has NOTHING to due with turkey hunting.

Read it again.

Also, ALL firearms have a military history. The actions, calibers, type of firearm, you name it. They all have a military link, in some way or another. Even front loading blackpowder rifles and pistols.

Everything, 22 rimfires, 30 06, 12 gauge, you name it, its military.

Even my great Granddad's lever action, was a military gun, and the ultimate in firepower in its age.

So if you want to go "military itis" or "gangbanger itis" I will gladly pay you 10 dollars for every functional firearm you wish to turn in (donate directly to me!) to protect the general public.

(However the donor must pay all transfer fees, and conduct the transaction through a FFL.)



A.G.

[Andy Giannini]

The 1911 was a version of John Browning's pistol design, that was already for sale to the general public prior to the US adopting it in 1911.

Autoloading (semi automatic) pistols have been for sale here in the US for dang near 100 years.



A.G.

[Marty]

If you want gun control you should post a sign in front of you house “saying there are no gun in this houseâ€

[Dom]

I own guns and I believe in our right to own them I do not hunt just somthing about killing for sport dont do it for me. (different strokes for different folks) I am not against it either (not a tree hugger) BUT I will pull the trigger on anyone trying to break in my house and do harm to mine.

Look at the home invasions going on lately, and you can say that dont happen in my nieborhood but your the ones on the news saying I didn't think it would happen to me. Times are tough and people are desparate.

As for the assault rifles I wish I had a fully auto mac 10 becuase when they envade I want to take out as many as I can.

I am from Texas and I still got family all over my cousin Larry carries his fire arm with him at all times and its legal to do so.

You can debate this all yall want but it will only go down one way

If in fact we ever have to pull togeather and fight for our freedom on our home land us guys/gals with the guns will be out front and all yall with none will be hiding behind us.

Man or mouse your choice.

I aint saying you gotta agree or I have to agree to go one way yall who dont want em just leave those who do want em alone.

Now in all this I am refering to legally purchased firarms.

As for the gangs and thugs I say ship em all out to a deserted island and drop em off let them kill each other there that way innocent people wont get hurt. People kill people, Not GUNS

Just my all American 0.02

On a lighter note can yall imagine if the pilgrams and indians sat down and ate a CAT instead of a turkey ? Yall know what we all would be eating tomorrow? LOL LOL sorry just alittle thanks giving humor I would have posted in the louge but its GONE!

HAPPY THANKS GIVING!

[Guy Kelley]

First of all I don't know who Jim Zumbo is ! And I personally do give a squat who he is. To be compared to someone else is rather low brow !

Lets stay on track here.

My problem is with Military Style Sport Assault Rifles Period.

Those are the type that your Pd and Mine are having the problems with. It's not until recently that the local Pd have been arming themselves with Military Style Of Weapon's (See Florida State Pd), that they have been able to match the gangs weapons.

I find it troubling when our Pd must resort to this in order to stay up with the crack heads and gang bangers to keep you, me and the local 7-11 employee, safe and cozy in our bed's at night.
Or to keep the little kids playing in there front yard from getting killed from stray bullets, that some local thug just sprayed in your or my neighborhood, so he could cap some guy dissing his color or number.

I personally don't hunt. use to but not now, If I had a collection of these style of weapons and was asked to turn em in to keep you, me or the kid next door safe. I don't think I would mind so much.
But. I don't own em so I really cant say what I would do to be honest. To me IMHO I would not care if they were gone.

Andy . The Chinese invented gun power so dose that count for military ?

And all States are Govern over by the Constitution. As long as the State or City Governments don't over ride that it's OK. It's when they get them self in trouble when they do. And I am not talking about some silly local ordnance like sitting on a sidewalk or jay walking.
Were talking Civics 101 here guys. you know it and so do I.

[Brian]

Guy, are you a sheep, sheep dog, or Wolf??????????????




Miss Edwards, I read of your student activity regarding the proposed memorial to Col. Greg Boyington, USMC and a Medal of Honor recipient. I suspect you will receive a bellyful of angry e-mails from conservative folks like me.

You may be too young to appreciate fully the sacrifices of generations of servicemen and servicewomen on whose shoulders you and your fellow students stand. I forgive you for the untutored ways of youth and your naiveté. It may be that you are, simply, a sheep. There's no dishonor in being a sheep as long as you know and accept what you are.

William J. Bennett, in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24,1997 said: Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident. We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

Then there are the wolves and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy. Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

Then there are sheepdogs and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf. If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the unchartered path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

We know that the sheep live in denial; that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. Still , the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports, in camouflage fatigues, holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, Baa. Until the wolf shows up; then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them.

This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door. Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed, right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day.
After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes. The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference. You want to be able to make a difference. There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself. Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey . Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When they learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd and the other passengers confronted the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers, athletes, business people and parents from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice.

But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision. If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between.

Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. It's ok to be a sheep, but do not kick the sheep dog. Indeed, the sheep dog may just run a little harder, strive to protect a little better and be fully prepared to pay an ultimate price in battle and spirit with the sheep moving from baa to thanks.

We do not call for gifts or freedoms beyond our lot. We just need a small pat on the head, a smile and a thank you to fill the emotional tank which is drained protecting the sheep. And when our number is called by The Almighty, and day retreats into night, a small prayer before the heavens just may be in order to say thanks for letting you continue to be a sheep. And be grateful for the thousands, millions of American sheepdogs who permit you the freedom to express even bad ideas.


There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. Edmund Burke.

Only the dead have seen the end of war. Plato

[fourbizzle]

guy are you serious?

do you honestly think that making " military style sport assault rifles" will do ANYTHING to take them out of the hands of criminals????? Half of them already have fully automatic weapons anyway. besides in this facisst (sic) state they already have outlawed what they have defined as "assault" rifles.

[Guy Kelley]

Brian;

I have to say, WELL SAID

I will go out on a limb here and say that what you have posted has more truth in it than most people would be willing to admit.

I appreciate that there are you who are Sheep Dogs to protect those who are sheep from the wolf who always is looking for a victim. Unfortunately it has always been that way and always will be.

I will not go to far except to say most in my family have been in one way or another a Sheep Dog. Although the last time we were we were spit on when we got off the plane by The Peace Not War Freaks. Things sure have change since then.

Nuff thread hijacking; See Ya

[Blue_R70]

So when is the last time somebody needed a Semi-Auto AK-47. To Go Turkey Hunting.

A semi-auto AK-47 is an oxymoron. The AK-47 is full auto/select fire; the semi-auto civilian versions are no different than other semi-auto hunting or target rifles: they fire one shot per pull of the trigger. There's nothing wrong with Black Rifles but why would anyone use an AK variant for turkey hunting in the first place? That's like chasing tuna or bluewater species with a bassboat--sure, you might be able to it but why? There's a thing called using the right tool for the job.

Full automatic weapons are illegal and have been since I believe 1928

Nope, the National Firearms Act of 1934 made it harder for civilians to own full auto weapons (ie, the Act added a special tax and additional gummint hoops to jump through) but they're NOT illegal for most folks to own. Ordinary folks in most states--around 35 states, actually--can legally own machine guns (belt fed, crew served, electric powered anti-aircraft variants and otherwise), submachine guns, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, sound suppressors, grenade launchers, artillery and other Class III/Title 2/NFA weapons. Machine gun shoots and competitions are actually very common events (just go to Oregon or Nevada) but the full auto stuff is mainly a rich man's hobby.

You know Guy, You sound just like Jim Zumbo did, And do you know what happend to him?????

Zumbo's a total Fudd and when he spoke out against so-called "assault weapons" the backlash forced Remington to drop him as a spokesperson. What's really funny is that Remington just introduced their own series of AR-15 rifles (the rifles are actually manufactured by Bushmaster Firearms, which they recently acquired).

[mark poulson]

I don't think there is any law that is going to stop criminals from doing crime. But laws give society some kind of enforcable rules to try and control the bad guys.
Weapons, all weapons, have been "military" ever since man move from simple hunter/gatherers to villages and tribes, with land and resources to defend.
The best gun control is a healthy economy with good paying jobs. Someone who can make a good living, and afford time off to play with his kids and teach them right from wrong is what any society needs to have good, productive, involved members.
Values are handed down from father to son, mother to daughter, not from laws passed by politicians pandering to one special interest or another.

I think this whole gun law issue is another instance of trying to balance the needs of the individual and the needs of the society.
The struggle between state's, and individual's, rights and the federal government has been ongoing since our country was founded, and the Constitution and Bill of Rights are the compromise between those two seemingly conflicting interests
that our founding fathers forged to make our country possible.
The Bill of Rights, the first ten amendments to the Constitution, were specifically included to protect the rights of both the individual citizen, and the individual states, from the natural tendency of any centralized, Federal Government to extend it's powers and tip the balance of power in it's favor.
Our founding fathers were smart enough to realize that any government design that doesn't make all the parties in it feel like they have an equal say wouldn't work. That's why the checks and balances style of government is built into our country at all levels.

Keep the faith. In the battle of Us versus Them, most of us are the Us. We may be sheep, but we all have a little wolf and a lot of sheepdog in us.

[Ringer]

Guy-I appreciate your opinion but I don't agree with it. Since we are a pioneer nation built on guns and there are so many in circulation how would any government take them away? How many criminals follow the laws in the first place? If you were a banger with an Uzi or a pistola and you were deciding who to rob or rape would you feel so confident if you lived in a place where any grandma could be packing a firearm or would you prefer your victims to be unarmed? As for AK47 rifles I hunt coyotes with one and they work fine for that just like any other rifle. This decision is long overdue and IMO you people in California will be allowed to own and carry firearms once again.

[Rod Martin]

Dumb as I am, I thought the 2nd amendment was to allow the common man a way to defend himself against our own goverment. And has nothing to do with hunting or sport shooting. But I guess if you take away everything but a singleshot, we can be more like Darfur and less like Sweden.

[blkdog812]

remember what happened in germany. nuff said

[Greg_Cornish]

Areas of the United States where the requirements for getting a concealed weapons permit have been relaxed, have seen very dramatic decreases in crime.

Where's that?

[Brian]

Areas of the United States where the requirements for getting a concealed weapons permit have been relaxed, have seen very dramatic decreases in crime.

Where's that?

Google it. It is a proven fact.

[Jim Conlow Sr.]

So what you are saying is, that as soon as they changed the law people quit reporting the crimes.
Wow thats great I would never have thought of that

[Greg_Cornish]

I found this and of course I found conflicting reports. Everyone has their agenda. I'm a gun owner and believe that Conceal and carry permits should be made on a case by case basis. I also thik that there should be more money poured into anti-gang taskforces, and lots of research should be put into why idiot parents aren't keeping their kids out of gangs. I think parents of gang members should be held equally as accountable for gang crimes.

CCW: Why or Why Not?

*

The number of crime victims who successfully use firearms to defend themselves is quite small. According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports and the Centers for Disease Control, out of 30,708 Americans who died by gunfire in 1998, only 316 were shot in justifiable homicides by private citizens with firearms.
*

More guns = more crime - or at least a much smaller reduction in the crime rate. A 1999 study by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence (formerly the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence), using FBI crime statistics, demonstrated that liberalizing CCW laws may have an adverse effect on a state's crime rate. Between 1992 and 1998, the violent crime rate in states which kept strict CCW laws fell by an average of 30%. The violent crime rate for the states that had weak CCW laws during this same time saw their violent crime rates drop by only 15%. Nationally, violent crime declined by 25% during that same period. (Click here to see the study, Concealed Truth.) Clearly, states with stricter CCW laws have found more effective ways to reduce their crime rates than letting more people carry hidden handguns.
*

The gun lobby claims that only law-abiding citizens get CCW permits. But an August 2000 study by the Violence Policy Center revealed that, from January 1996 through April 2000, the arrest rate for weapon-related offenses among Texas concealed handgun license holders was 66% higher than that of the general adult population of Texas. CCW license holders are committing crimes - including murder, rape, assault and burglary - but because the gun lobby makes it difficult if not impossible for the public to determine if a shooter has a CCW license in most states, the full story has not yet been told.
*

Law-abiding citizens with the best intentions underestimate how hard it is to use a gun for self-defense successfully. Even highly-trained police officers lose control of their handguns; according to the FBI, 5 out of 41 law enforcement officers (12%) killed by gunfire in the line of duty in 1999 were killed by an adversary with the officer's own service weapon. And police officers know that the very sight of a gun can escalate a situation, so that instead of simply losing your wallet, you can lose your life. That's why almost every major law enforcement organization - including the International Brotherhood of Police Officers and the International Association of Chiefs of Police - opposes the weakening of CCW laws. (See Law Enforcement Relations)
*

An armed society is an at-risk society. Many permit holders have been stripped of their permits for criminal behavior - and even law-abiding people get angry, drunk, careless or confused, make mistakes, and escalate minor arguments into deadly gun-play. (For more information, see The Incident File.)

The Laws

Carrying-concealed-weapons (CCW) laws have nothing to do with private firearms ownership in the home. They relate solely to allowing individuals to carry their concealed guns almost anywhere in the community.

Much of the CCW debate is couched in somewhat obscure language. The gun lobby is pushing for "shall issue" CCW laws, which force law enforcement to issue a CCW license to anyone who meets that state's requirements. In many states, these requirements are minimal and do not go much beyond the federal Brady Law requirements for purchasing firearms - meaning that some people get CCW permits despite criminal convictions for violent or drug-related misdemeanors or domestic violence restraining orders. Training requirements are extremely lax in many states and do not even include proof that a licensee knows how to load, fire or store a firearm. And, although some states forbid the carrying of concealed weapons in certain government buildings, some shall-issue states allow concealed weapons in bars, daycare centers, sports stadiums and other public places where firearms should clearly be prohibited. Four states - Alabama, New Hampshire, Oregon and Utah - even permit CCW permit holders to secretly carry guns into school classrooms at will.

The National Rifle Association (NRA) is now trying to make the "shall-issue" CCW state laws even worse. The NRA is campaigning to overturn all restrictions on carrying hidden handguns - so they can secretly carry guns into schools, bars, sports stadiums and other public places. NRA wants to repeal all safety training requirements and overturn mental health background check laws. And most cynically, the NRA is pushing new laws that would forbid disclosure of the fact that someone who used a gun illegally had a CCW permit - so no one will ever know when people illegally use their CCW-permitted gun to kill or threaten other people.

[Jim Conlow Sr.]

The State of Florida for one. They have made it easier for law abiding citizens to get carry permits and the crime statistic have dropped dramatically

[Jim Conlow Sr.]

When they show up with rape and death on their minds. Tell your wife and dauighters about how happy you are that you cant protect them

[Greg_Cornish]

I must be googling wrong. I can't find any studies that show florida crime statistics before and after the C&C law. I find lots of people saying that its true but no study. I do find a study that shows out of the 149 crimes committed by people with C&C permits 84 were committed after the permit was issued. Anyone who can't see through that BS study is an idiot. How is anyone supposed to form an opinion based on 149 people out of 11,000.

I found another that said out of 11,000 permits in Florida 6000 were revoked then 4000 of the 6000 were reissued. HUH? I think someone made that one up.

Oh well, like Sam Clements said, "There are three kinds of lies; White Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics."

[Marty]

The Brady Center that is like PETA giving out Fish License!
Here read this!

Violent crime hit an all-time high in 1991. Since then, “gun controlâ€

[Greg_Cornish]

Wow. Not one of those links backs up anything the article states. Typical.
This is the only think I could find in there that showed statistics and they don't even mention if the crimes were by gun or baseball bat.

[Marty]

Your right - go post your sign in your front yard “saying there are no gun in this houseâ€

[Guy Kelley]

I think most don't understand my post in the first place, so off the cliff I go again.

If you disagree with me no big deal.

This has nothing to do with Sheep, Sheepdog or Wolf.

All citizens of America have the Constitutional right to bear arms.
(Not sure about Illegal aliens) and as long as it is with-in the law as it is laid out.

Unless The Supreme Court Amends The Constitution . "That's It".

You, I, The dope dealer down the street (No Felony Convictions) and the gang banger all have a right to have knock offs of Uzi's, AK-47's semi-autos and in some states the real thing if we have a lot of money and go through the hoops needed to own Machine Guns etc.

I will spill my Blood to protect that right for you or me !!!!!!!!

I just think its a sorry state that we need to have our police men and women arming themselves with these same type of copies, so they are not out gunned by the bad guys on the streets.

Whether you own this type of weapon is your business and not mine.

If you use it to blow up targets or turkeys that's your right !!!!

Personally I just wish they never came out in the first place, so we would not have to be dealing with this issue. But that's up to the Gun Manufacture, Federal Government and Gun Lobyest, Unless it goes to a Public Vote that changes the law.

If a bad guy walks through my front door with out my permission intent on doing harm to me, my family OR YOU. Me and Friend Remington will say oh no you wont Same thing if its in a car, boat, plane, RV or a pup-tent.

End of story.

[912nitro]

So Guy... do you actually KNOW any hunters with ak47's ?

[Greg_Cornish]

[quote="Marty"]Your right - go post your sign in your front yard “saying there are no gun in this houseâ€

[Brian]

Guy, the weapons you are talking about are used in about 0.01% of shooting crimes. By getting rid one type you start a landslide. You are making no sense.

[Andy Giannini]

EDIT NM

[Blue_R70]

I got to see Jon Ciener's (he's the well known manufacturer of .22LR conversions) General Electric Minigun in action at one of the Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoots in Louisville, KY a few years ago. The event occurs twice annually but this particular one was held to celebrate the tenth anniversary of the now defunct Machine Gun News magazine.

Talk about exercising your Second Amendment rights!

[Guy Kelley]

Of Course I am making sense, it is you personally who chooses not to make sense of a inane argument and for me to keep trying on my part is like pounding on sand.

And yes I agree with you that once we start sliding down the slope of gun control . were dose it end ? I am sure there are folks who would like to see BB-guns and Slingshots baned.

IMHO If the manufacturer's did not market the Military style of sport assault weapons being used to kill innocent and guilty people alike we would not have the statistics that you quote. To me one cop or one child is one too many. As I am sure it is to you also.

But since they have, And its upheld by the Constitution. The debate that you and I are having is of a no consequence.

Debate Brian; Is What Is To Me Consequential For You And I To Live In A Free Society In The First Place. Whether we agree or disagree with one another to me is of no importance.

When the time comes both You and I would be the sheepdogs guarding the sheep. With Rocks Or Clubs If Need Be.

[Andy Lippert]

Guy,


I've shot the M16 A2/A4 and the M4 Carbine extensively throughout the past 3 years that I've been in the Marine Corps, and I'll be quite honest with you...I would LOVE to see a hadji's head explode through the ACOG on my M16/M4, however, I'd much rather shoot one with a .308 or 30/06. My confidence with the weapons that I'm trained with has caused me to become impartial to those weapons, just due to the fact that I have shot thousands of 5.56 rounds through each one. BUT if I had a choice of turning a hadjis head into pink mist from 700 yds with a .308 or an M16 it'd be the .308, hands down.

How does that play into your ban on "military style of sport assault weapons"? Are you gonna ban deer rifles too? Gimme a break.

-Andrew Lippert CPL, USMC

[Ringer]

Good on you Andy and thanks for guarding the flock. Read this discussion and you can see who was raised hunting and tracking and who has listened to the fear mongerers. If I decide to kill someone my first choice will be a knife. Killing is killing and a baseball bat can get you just as dead as a boom stick. A single shot .22 is just as lethal as those bad looking guns. 98% of people can't shoot a semi-auto effectively in rapid fire let alone a full auto. Most opinions are formed without first hand knowledge and the Brady bunch has certainly exploited that fact.

[DeltaDan]

Of Course I am making sense, it is you personally who chooses not to make sense of a inane argument and for me to keep trying on my part is like pounding on sand.

So when is the last time somebody needed a Semi-Auto AK-47.
To Go Turkey Hunting.

........Guy- You have not made any sence from your opening statement- The taking of Turkeys with a rifle other than air/gas powered with a .20 cal minimum is prohibited by law. Please refer to the DFG Upland reg's Section 311. ~~~> http://www.dfg.ca.gov/regulations/07-08 ... s-regs.pdf


Our Hunting Laws are already set and defined by the DFG and are be fully abbided to by every Outdoorsman.


Other than that- I am a law abiding Sportsman and Citizen.... I respectfully ask that since your views have absolutely no bearing for me or any other US Citizen from fully excersing our constitutional rights to "keep and bear arms"....... That you just wait till the Courts decide the outcome. -- You don't speak for me ... and you sure in the hell don't make the laws of our Land. (Thankfully !!)



Until then -- If you want to live in a society that only the criminals have handgunds ...... Move to D.C. , NJ. ,NH ..... Or even San Fran and voluntarially hand what ever you have to the city officials over there.... since SF could not enforce the handgun ban-- it was rejected as unconstituinal from our State Supreme court less than only 2 years ago. -- San Fran needs more people like you.

[Blue_R70]

IMHO If the manufacturer's did not market the Military style of sport assault weapons being used to kill innocent and guilty people alike we would not have the statistics that you quote.

There's the key word: "military style"

A military style "assault weapon" is only styled after the ones Uncle Sam buys. Like any other semi-automatic, non-military "sporting" arm they don't have select fire capability and only shoot one round per trigger pull.

Maybe it's the cosmetics that bother you?

[mac (Doyle McEwen)]

Simple question, why does a sportsman need a high capacity magazine for hunting..Simple answer, they don't..Yet you will find virtually thousands of people that think they do, or at least that is what they say..Truthfully I don't think Guy is so much against the military style weapons, other than the fully auto type, there are many of those out there in the wriong hands..

Of course your typical gansta probably has nothing more than a pistol that in most cases they have no idea how to shoot properly or with any great amount of accuracy..This has led to a lot of uninvolved bystanders getting shot and far too often killed..


I am not against you or anyone (other than convicted criminals and mentally unstable people) owning guns..Just as AG stated, a weapon is a tool..In the right hands they are quite useful, in the wrong hands they are often deadly to the wrong people..

There are a ton of gun control laws in existance, their unequal and spotty enforcement is cause for a lot of the problems..But there are only so many law officers and others involved with the problem..They cannot be everywhere all the time..

And by the way Andy Lippert, hadji is a hindu word and is a common name in India and possibly several other Hindu countries..I didn't realize we had a big problem in this area, other than the outsourcing of jobs..I know you meant this as a slap to radical Muslims, but you really need to learn the origins..Thank you for serving and take care of yourself..

mac

[whazup]

IMHO......I don't care if ya want to carry a hand gun for protection of family or property. Thats fine well and good ! As long as your registered and doing it by the book, no worries.

But were I do have the problem is when the PD and Others in Law enforcement have to move up to military style weapons to keep up with the street thugs and gang-bangers or they are out gunned.

That's were I draw the line.

Yeah Yeah, I 've herd that squeal before, from the professional gun lobbers. It's in the Constitution Blah, Blah, Blah. So when is the last time somebody needed a Semi-Auto AK-47.
To Go Turkey Hunting.

If ya ask me, Get the High Grade Stuff Off The Streets and we can all sleep better at night.

Scariest statement I've heard in a long time.

[Ringer]

I bet if we tried to change the Bill of Rights to restrict free speech and shut up Rosey O'donnell it wouldn't just be the same old blah blah blah!

[Jim Conlow Sr.]

*NM*

[Guy Kelley]

Since You have chosen to jump into middle of this Debate and to use selected "quotes" from me as you have seen fit.

I think it is only fair to offer a rebuttal.

Andy; IMHO, I do not advocate any banning of guns in the first place. Because once they take away your right or mine to own any style of weapons that we are allowed under the Constitution were dose it stop ? If that were the case i am afraid we would soon see the disappearance of BB-guns, cap guns and sling shots as well. And soon after that the Boy & Girl Scouts and just about any other youth organization that has any thing more to it that to play tidly-winks would be selectively banned as well. Soon we would have the total feminization of Americas youth with PETA telling us where and where not we could fish.

I said " I wish they The Manufacturer did not make Military style or knock offs of Assault type of sporting rifles" End Quote It is some of these that are falling into the wrong hands of people (Bad Guys) who the pd is having to deal with. And now they have to up size too in order to be on a equal footing with. Such as in the case in Florida where the individual Cop is buying his or her own from gun shops due to the fact that the Department dose not have enough money to supply every officer on the force with his or her own personal Military Style Of Sport Assault Rifle in order to equal the fire power of the local gang bangers and street thugs. Of whom they must face every day. ( Google; CNN News ) If they were not available to us responsible sportsmen, then they would not be avalable to the (Bad Guys). Except through the black market. But its too late now, The cats out of the bag and it is what it is.

To me it all about marketing and money that the gun manufactures will make as profits. If they build it we will buy it. Legal or not. They know that we have the right to own so they will just keep on cranking them out with no concern to them of what they are use for.

DELTA DAN ; No I don't write the laws, nor do I want to. I will leave that to ones who are far smarter and wiser than me to do. I just have the right to vote on them if I am given the opportunity to.

But...AS you suggested to me. Next time you are in San Francisco.....

I would suggest that you get on your soap box and stare into the eyes of the widow of a slain police officer killed by a street thug armed with one of these or the mother of a child who was killed from a stray bullet from a knock off rifle.
Preach to them why you as a responsible hunter who follows all the laws, protected by the Constitution and Fish & Game have the rights to own one. Convince them, not me.

I think I have said enough. If ya agree fine, If ya dont. I can live with that too. I' ll just stick to fishing and bow off the box for now

[Jim Conlow Sr.]

Introduction
First, what are "liberalized" concealed carry laws? They are a set of requirements, when met by an applicant, require the issuance of a concealed carry permit, which allows a permit holder to carry a gun (concealed) in public places. These requirements may consist of a license fee, a safety training program or exam, fingerprinting, a "clean" record, no history of mental illness, etc. In other words it is not left to the discretion of local authorities to decide whether or not to issue a permit. Liberalized concealed carry laws are more often referred to as "shall-issue concealed carry weapons" laws.

In 1987, when Florida enacted such legislation, critics warned that the "Sunshine State" would become the "Gunshine State." Contrary to their predictions, homicide rates dropped faster than the national average. Further, through 1997, only one permit holder out of the over 350,000 permits issued, was convicted of homicide. (Source: Kleck, Gary Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, p 370. Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.) If the rest of the country behaved as Florida's permit holders did, the U.S. would have the lowest homicide rate in the world.

David Kopel, Research Director at the Independence Institute comments on Florida's concealed carry experience:

"What we can say with some confidence is that allowing more people to carry guns does not cause an increase in crime. In Florida, where 315,000 permits have been issued, there are only five known instances of violent gun crime by a person with a permit. This makes a permit-holding Floridian the cream of the crop of law-abiding citizens, 840 times less likely to commit a violent firearm crime than a randomly selected Floridian without a permit." ("More Permits Mean Less Crime..." Los Angeles Times, Feb. 19, 1996, Monday, p. B-5)
Thirty-five states have enacted "shall-issue" concealed carry laws , and two states, Alaska and Vermont, do not require any permit of its residents (state map of concealed carry laws).

The Lott-Mustard Report

John Lott and David Mustard, in connection with the University of Chicago Law School, examining crime statistics from 1977 to 1992 for all U.S. counties, concluded that the thirty-one states allowing their residents to carry concealed, had significant reductions in violent crime. Lott writes, "Our most conservative estimates show that by adopting shall-issue laws, states reduced murders by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%. If those states that did not permit concealed handguns in 1992 had permitted them back then, citizens might have been spared approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and 12,000 robberies. To put it even more simply criminals, we found, respond rationally to deterrence threats... While support for strict gun-control laws usually has been strongest in large cities, where crime rates are highest, that's precisely where right-to-carry laws have produced the largest drops in violent crimes."

[Jim Conlow Sr.]

Australia crime statisticsOBSERVABLE FACT AFTER 12 MONTHS OF DATA

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%.

Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%.

Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44%. (yes, FORTY-FOUR PERCENT)

In the state of Victoria, homicides-with-firearms are up 300%!

The steady decrease in homicides-with-firearms that occurred during the previous 25 years became an increase in the last 12 months.

The steady decrease in armed-robbery-with-firearms that occurred during the previous 25 years became an increase in the last 12 months.

There has been a dramatic increase in breakins-and-assaults-of-the-elderly.

At the time of the ban, the Prime Minister said "self-defense is not a reason for owning a firearm".

From 1910 to present, homicides in Australia have averaged about 1.8-per-100,000 or lower, a safe society by any standard.

The ban has destroyed Australia's standings in some international sport shooting competitions.

The membership of the Australian Sports Shooting Association has increased by 200% in response to the ban and in an attempt to organize against further controls, which are expected.

Australian politicians are on the spot and at a loss to explain why no improvement in "safety" has been observed after such monumental effort and expense was successfully expended in "ridding society of guns". Their response has been to "wait longer".

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"...The best organization you've got there, the biggest organization you've got there is the NRA. We don't have an organization that size. We didn't have an organization that size, and as a consequence, we suffered. And we hope that you don't suffer..."